查看完整版本 : 澳洲LLB一問

eph123 2012-10-10 18:16

本人而加想報澳洲大學 讀LLB 但係其實澳洲既大學係唔係真係冇咁出名同前路難行?
我見到melbourne,syney,monash個D排名都唔低.為何冇人鍾意去澳洲讀?
去澳洲要讀double degree, 咁其實加邊一科會好D 多D出路?
仲有上面個3間 邊間可以適合讀PCLL?
認真想讀LAW 唔該大家回答下我.
THX!!

scotman 2012-10-11 16:18

the question is :why go to Australia in the first place? it is expensive, and yes, subject to some exception, the academic standard in Australia is, by general recognition, no disrespect here,  lower than that of UK. A double degree means you are not good at any single one. A double degree will not help you to impress your boss, it may help you to impress those who has no ideas of what university education is . If you must go to that three universities, all are good.

eph123 2012-10-11 16:53

I was going to uk in the first place, but I could not get my student visa on time, so i couldnt go this year. I m thinking to take a-level and apply again next yr. The other way will be going to Aus. I really dont know what should I do right now...:smile_27:

idkkkkk 2012-10-11 18:30

[quote]原帖由 [i]scotman[/i] 於 2012-10-11 04:18 PM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=344650434&ptid=20964853][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
the question is :why go to Australia in the first place? it is expensive, and yes, subject to some exception, the academic standard in Australia is, by general recognition, no disrespect here,  lower than that of UK. A double degree means you are not good at any single one. A double degree will not help you to impress your boss, it may help you to impress those who has no ideas of what university education is . If you must go to that three universities, all are good. [/quote]
Your reply just shows how ignorant you are.

Firstly, 'the academic standard in Australia is, by general recognition, no disrespect here,  lower than that of UK'. That may be true when you compare Australian universities to Oxbridge, UCL etc. However, when compared to Nottingham, Warwick, etc I don't think the standard is any lower than that.

As a matter of fact, if the academic standard of Australian university is low, then why would all these law firms have vacation schemes that are tailored to Australian students. Most major law firms in Hong Kong have winter vacation scheme from Nov-Feb. Just to name a few: Deacons, CC, Freshfields, Skadden, Orrick, Baker, JSM, DLA. Furthermore, Deacons, CC, Skadden, Davis Polk, Orrick, Baker, Freshfields even flew over to Sydney and Melbourne earlier this year to interview their candidates. And I have been lucky enough to receive more than one offers from these firms. If the standard is THAT low, why would these law firms even bother recruiting from Australia?

Secondly, in relation to 'A double degree means you are not good at any single one.' This is a BIG JOKE. Do you even know how double degree works? Double degree students do the exact amount of credits in Law as normal LLB student. So instead of graduating with one single LLB, we spent extra two years to get another degree (be it commerce, BBA, arts, engineering, science etc). On the other hand, corporate firms do recruit students from a double degree background. Many of my friends did get interviews and offers from investment banks and management consulting firms. If they are "not good at any single one", why would they hire them? Having established that double degree students have the exact amount of credits, you argument again shows how ignorant you are.

I have had the opportunity to talk to various recruiting partners from different firms during their visit to Australia. One of the partners actually expressly told me that he prefers double degree students. He said, for example, the commerce/law students are 'mature and have better knowledge in business'. His firm, a US white shoe firm, hired 4 trainees last year and all of them happened be have done a double degree from Australia. So I don't know if it is the partner who has no idea of what university education is, or that native person was actually you.

[[i] 本帖最後由 idkkkkk 於 2012-10-11 07:00 PM 編輯 [/i]]

idkkkkk 2012-10-11 18:43

[quote]原帖由 [i]eph123[/i] 於 2012-10-11 04:53 PM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=344652992&ptid=20964853][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
I was going to uk in the first place, but I could not get my student visa on time, so i couldnt go this year. I m thinking to take a-level and apply again next yr. The other way will be going to Aus.  ... [/quote]
If you are smart, you will excel whichever university you decide to attend.
However, if you are dumb, no matter how famous your university is, it is unlikely that you will be hired by top tier firms. Even if you are hired, you won't stay long. (Of course, if you are rich and your parents can refer lots of clients, or that your parents are partners, that's another story)

eph123 2012-10-11 19:30

[quote]原帖由 [i]idkkkkk[/i] 於 2012-10-11 06:43 PM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=344660085&ptid=20964853][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]

If you are smart, you will excel whichever university you decide to attend.
However, if you are dumb, no matter how famous your university is, it is unlikely that you will be hired by top tier firm ... [/quote]
I know mostly is depends on myself, but isn't that most of the firms in hk will pay more attention to the graduates from uk over Aus?
And is there a significant difference between hk law and Aus law?

idkkkkk 2012-10-11 19:40

[quote]原帖由 [i]eph123[/i] 於 2012-10-11 07:30 PM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=344662566&ptid=20964853][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]

I know mostly is depends on myself, but isn't that most of the firms in hk will pay more attention to the graduates from uk over Aus?
And is there a significant difference between hk law and Aus la ... [/quote]
I cannot speak for the firms. But all I know is major international and big local firms do recruit from Australia and some of them fly to Sydney and Melbourne every year to attend law fairs and conduct interviews.

In terms of the legal system, I would say they are very similar, since they are both in the common law system. As a matter of fact, many retired Australian High Court judges have sat in Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal. Legislations are quite similar, as the ordinance in Hong Kong often mirrors those from Australia.

[[i] 本帖最後由 idkkkkk 於 2012-10-11 09:02 PM 編輯 [/i]]

scotman 2012-10-12 09:25

I agree with some of the points raised by idkkkkk and of course he is entirely right to air his opinion here. But to say one is ignorant just did not fit with the standard of this forum.  This is a forum for opinions, like it or not,  and not for insulting , however much you disagree . Like I say, by repeatedly shown his opinions shared by , if any, multi-national firms, big firms, high court judge or whosoever, it tells us something which can best be felt by readers of this forum. I meant no disrespect and if my feeling of Australian legal education hurts this idkkkkkk, in case you were one of them , I apologize. There are of course very bright person, whoever they may be, in all jurisdiction and if I did not qualified by opinion by " in general", that is my fault. But surely, I am not ignorant as alleged by this idkkkkk. Anyway, I appreciate his opinion and I just hope that this kind of language will not be repeated here. In any event, his articles had given us a lot of informations here, and I believe, I am one of them, we are all grateful to see such information, even though I am not from the Australian school.

scotman 2012-10-12 09:31

I must say, I agree entirely with idkkkk # 5 reply, this should in fact appeal to all the reader of this forum and in fact this is the answer to many questions raised in this forum. LIke which university is best, or which course is good etcs. All depends on oneself,if you can help yourself, no one will help you , not even this forum. idkkkk is a young man and I am grateful to his reply, it mades me think again the reactions of a young man. Thanks.

idkkkkk 2012-10-12 10:30

[quote]原帖由 [i]scotman[/i] 於 2012-10-12 09:25 AM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=344703415&ptid=20964853][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
I agree with some of the points raised by idkkkkk and of course he is entirely right to air his opinion here. But to say one is ignorant just did not fit with the standard of this forum.  This is a fo ... [/quote]While my language may seem aggressive and I disagree with you in many aspects, I totally respect your comment and contribution.

I withdraw any comments I have made that may have offended you, as I did not intend my comment to be offensive.

Just to clarify, by "ignorant" and "naive", I did not mean it in its negative sense, but its literal sense: "lacking knowledge or awareness in general" (Oxford Dictionary). Many of your comments lacked evidence to support, such as "[size=13px]A double degree means you are not good at any single one.[/size]", "[size=13px]the academic standard in Australia is, by general recognition, no disrespect here,  lower than that of UK[/size]". Furthermore, in Australia, LLB is only offered in combined degree, or JD as a postgraduate course. Thus I see no reason why double degree students will be inferior to a single degree holder.All I have done was presenting my arguments with my first hand experience and evidence justifying my assertions.

[[i] 本帖最後由 idkkkkk 於 2012-10-12 10:33 AM 編輯 [/i]]

insiderall 2012-10-12 13:50

I think the debate over whether Us of UK are better than those of Aus and/or whether double degree is better is endless.  However, I think if you ask me what will be my choice if I were you, I would choose UK (LLB and not double degree).  

There are several reasons : 3 years vs 5 years (quicker and cheaper); better general perception of a UK law degree (this may or may not be true); HK laws are largely copied from UK laws (though laws of Aus is similar to HK/UK); and most big/well-paid law firms in HK are UK/US base and naturally those UK law firms have a tenancy to recruit those from UK if the academic results/interview performance of the applicants are similar (of course, I can only presume this is the case and I do not have any figures to support).  There are of course exceptions, but I think we have to focus on the general.

The above comparison is only meaningful if similar ranking Us of UK and Aus are compared.  There is no point to compare Oxbridge to low rank Us of Aus.

HKOzLaw 2012-10-12 13:51

I believe idkkkkk is quite knowledgeable in this topic and can confirm that what he/she has said is basically accurate.  In addition, he has done quite well defending himself in regard to using the words "naive" and "ignorant" and "having evidence to support" one's words.  It is wonderful to see someone like idkkkkk giving valuable inputs.  Well done.

jimbo86 2012-10-12 14:00

I second for thaT.
student make the school, no the other way around.
not sure about current situation, if u call to bar in Uk, then ain't much hope to stay there to practice, perhaps Oz u may have a better chance.
u should consider in a few yrs, coming back to practice in HK that could be a real challenge!
After u have practice what school u grad from is not very relevant anyways.

[quote]原帖由 [i]idkkkkk[/i] 於 2012-10-11 06:43 PM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=344660085&ptid=20964853][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]

If you are smart, you will excel whichever university you decide to attend.
However, if you are dumb, no matter how famous your university is, it is unlikely that you will be hired by top tier firm ... [/quote]

HKOzLaw 2012-10-12 14:08

See below webpage for the ranking of law schools worldwide fyi.
[url]http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2012/subject-rankings/social-science/law[/url]

It is no use to generalize the standard of all law schools in one country and compare to all law schools in another country.  You need to get the facts right first and compare apple to apple and orange to orange.  Besides, there are a lot of other factors in play for being successful in a chosen field such as networking, who you/your parents know, face to face communication skills, time management skills, being an opportunist, risks taking, thinking outside the box, etc. and these things are not specifically assessed in law courses.  On top of that, no one can really plan to coincide their graduations with  booming legal job markets.

scotman 2012-10-12 15:50

dont be kidding. Ask 100 persons where they go for law? Uk and Australia ? and see the answer ?  What sort of evidences HKozlaw relied upon to suggest that  idkkkkk is basically accurate. Yes,my view is subjective, but they are my view. I do not purport to say that they are correct and universally true.  Unlike HKozlaw, or may be he is one of the boy from Australia also ? As I said, everyone is entitle to their own view, like it or not. You have a right to say whatever you want, but dont inflame the situation by  suggesting that you know the answer which you plainly dont. I dont myself, and i don't pretend to know the answer. This HKozlaw suggested he knows, or did he ?

scotman 2012-10-12 15:58

to HKOzlaw: Dont be kdding , if you ask 100 persons about the choice of law in UK or in Australia now ,I believe the majority will go for UK. Yes, I agree my view is subjective, but they are my view. It is not support by any evidence, because they are  my views and my opinion.
If you talk about someone " having evidences to support" , then I can see you are but one of the boy aggrieved by what I had stated because you also came from Australian school. This is forum where people air their will. If you want to inflame the situation by suggesting you can confirm the truth of that statement, please let us know what evidences you have, and what material you have in confirming such statement. Dont cite anything from your friend, a friend of your friends etcs. Mutli firms going to Australia to me has no bearing in my statement. And a judge sitting in our FCA again has no bearing on the issue as raised. Tell me what evidences you have to support your statement ?

Dailyfish 2012-10-12 15:58

In UK, most of the prestigeous colleges only offer LLB. Only those are in the low ranking or offer laws of another jurisdiction would provide double degrees as Australian colleges do. Any explanation why it is so?

scotman 2012-10-12 16:03

by the way, I declare my interest, I have a  lot of friends coming from Australia and yes, they are bright and hard working. Yes, I asked them to read to column and they said, basically what I said is correct and they said" what big deal" after all, it is my personal opinion only. So please support whatever statement you said by saying experiences from friends etcs to suggest what you were saying is nothing but the truth. I did not say so, all I am saying is that this is my view, my personal opinion, if you dont like it , fine. But to abuse "material" and against me is, to be honest, a childish behaviour.

idkkkkk 2012-10-12 17:35

[quote]原帖由 [i]scotman[/i] 於 2012-10-12 03:58 PM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=344729122&ptid=20964853][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
to HKOzlaw: Dont be kdding , if you ask 100 persons about the choice of law in UK or in Australia now ,I believe the majority will go for UK. Yes, I agree my view is subjective, but they are my view.  ... [/quote]Stop being over-sensitive and thinking the world is against you.

If you do respect what others have to say and contribute to the discussion, why so grumpy and deny the right of the others to air their opinion? It's not cool whenever people disagree with one, you just say "oh you must be one of those boys that are aggrieved since you are studying in an Australian law school". I don't see the discussion going any further with you displaying such attitude.

Please also note the context in which I talked about Australian judges in CFA. I only mentioned it to suggest the similarity between the common law in HK and Australia, since the same judges have sat in both courts. That's it. You must have overlooked it.

Further to what Dailyfish has asked: I have no idea.

But since ranking is involved, Australian Law Schools, contrary to the "general perception", are actually highly regarded in the world. According to QS World University Ranking 2012, some Australian Law Schools are ranked 8th, 10th, 14th, 15th and 30th.

As to why only combined degree is offered, I will not attempt to speculate the reason.

[[i] 本帖最後由 idkkkkk 於 2012-10-12 05:36 PM 編輯 [/i]]

HKOzLaw 2012-10-12 18:10

Scotman, don't be agitated by my opinion.  I am just affirming what idkkkkk has stated is mostly correct ie. big firms holding law fairs at some Australian Law Schools and accepting winter clerks as well as the fact that a lot of Australia law schools are offering either double law degrees or JD as opposed to the traditional straight law degrees (3 years only).  That is largely due to a few factors such as law degrees being cash cows with low overheads for Australian law schools and they get full fees paying students from JD instead of the lower fees government subsided stduents for undergraduate courses.  

The reason for offering double law degrees or post graduate JD law courses by Australian law schools is that law graduates with double degrees or JD are more favourably considered by law firms than someone who only has a straight law degree and HKU has in recent years also offered combined law degrees so as to keep their law graduates being competitive against graduates from other countries.  I think these information are readily available in various universities', law societies' websites as well as published law news.

Scotman, if you read idkkkkk's postings, he did not say that Australian law schools are better than UK law schools.  He mainly stated all the facts about law schools in Australia.  You may search on various Australian law school's career services webpages, HK large law firms' clerkship program webpages.  These are all easily accessible information.  

Besides, Australia adopts the common law legal system which was originally developed in UK as Australia is a commonwealth country and still is.  HK was part of the commonwealth until 1997.  However, HK maintains its common law legal system as opposed to the civil law legal system in mainland China.  Not sure what will happen after 2047.   So the legal knowledge and skills in all three places should be highly transferable.

I am very glad that this forum allows me to be anonymous and I value this opportunity.  The reason I replied is that some untrue information has been conveyed to an innocent party and that innocent party may rely on such piece of information as provided by a member of this forum to make their life changing decisions.  

As a matter of fact, there are still Australian law schools offering straight law degrees (ie. 3 years) but those law graduates may find themselves in a very difficult situation to compete with other combined law degrees and JD graduates due to their young age and lack of work or life experiences.

And I am touched by the generosity of idkkkkk for taking the time and effort to answer the question.

Last but not lest, Scotman please do not assume a lot of things such as my gender, my age and my experience.  You only need to know what is being said by me as they are my personal opinions only.  Please don't take offence.

[[i] 本帖最後由 HKOzLaw 於 2012-10-13 08:32 AM 編輯 [/i]]

scotman 2012-10-13 00:44

I defend you the right to defend the law  school in Australia !!!

HKOzLaw 2012-10-13 01:24

Thank you for allowing me the opportunities.

jimbo86 2012-10-13 01:46

your school only gets u into your 1st job,
your clients are not coming to see u because of your school.
but later on folks from same school or area may gravitate together, it can further your network.
probably for our kinds Oz may have a better chance to settle there, UK i guess u need brown skin to go any places.

HKOzLaw 2012-10-13 02:23

I am giving a go in answering the questions posted by eph123
本人而加想報澳洲大學 讀LLB 但係其實澳洲既大學係唔係真係冇咁出名同前路難行?

It depends on who you are and how much knowledge you have about legal education in other countries.

Anyone who has no knowledge in this area of course does not have a clue.  The partners of “city firms” or top international law firms who come from Australia and who are involved in recruiting law graduates/winter clerks for many years may know the best about whether Australian law schools are highly regarded in HK.  

From what I have gathered so far, it seems like all overseas law graduates have to pass the conversion examinations and get accepted to do PCLL at one of the three universities ie. HKU, CUHK and CITYU.  It seems to be quite difficult as the competition to get into PCLL is very severe.  The same for local students.  They need to get very good grades for their LLBs for all law subjects and core law subjects.  If you cannot get a place at PCLL, then you will be in big trouble.  Correct me if I am wrong here.

我見到melbourne,syney,monash個D排名都唔低.為何冇人鍾意去澳洲讀?
As someone has mentioned, most Australian law schools only offer combined law degrees (ie. 5 years) or JD  (post graduate law degrees), for a faster route, he/she probably will choose UK law schools as quite a few offer straight or single law degrees.  That will save money for studying fewer year/s and also because of the strong Australian currency at the moment, the course fees for studying one year may be less in Australia than in UK (just guessing about this last point)


去澳洲要讀double degree, 咁其實加邊一科會好D 多D出路?
I guess it depends on which area/s of law you want to practice after admission.  If you want to practice commercial law, then of course commerce.  If you want to be a building and construction lawyer, then engineering.  You better choose the one you are most interested in plus highly in demand.  I would choose where my heart belongs provided that area is not too narrow and jobs are available.  I find it very important to work in the area/s that I like.

仲有上面個3間 邊間可以適合讀PCLL?
You may find some answers in the attached brochure (see weblink 1 below). All three are very good law schools in Australia.  It seems like to get a place in PCLL is all about getting very good marks in your law subjects and core law subjects of your LLB/JD in highly regarded law schools.  

You may try to get a lawyer job after admission overseas for two or five years because you only need to do the five heads or one/two heads exam (see weblink 2 below or HK law society website).  However, it is not easy if you are a foreign international student in that country.  

It seems to me there is no easy path to qualify as a lawyer in HK at the moment.  It may have been easier at least six years or more ago.  Not at the moment.  It only gets harder and harder with how things are going right now in HK.

(1) [url]http://www.usydclss.com/cms/careersresources/Hong%20Kong%20Law%20Careers%20Guide.pdf[/url]

(2) [url]http://mybitblog.wordpress.com/2010/08/06/how-to-become-a-locally-qualified-lawyer-in-hong-kong/[/url]

insiderall 2012-10-13 16:30

From another perspective, you can look at the choice of lawyers for their children.  I have practised in this field for 10 odd years and have heard a lot of them study in the UK and not many of them study in Aus.  

Recently heard : daughters of Ben Yu, SC graduated from LSE.

idkkkkk 2012-10-13 16:41

Thank you for your input HKOzLaw.


"去澳洲要讀double degree, 咁其實加邊一科會好D 多D出路?"
I would also like to add a bit more about the non-law career paths for commerce/law degree holder. It depends on which major to decide to take on. I am more familiar with accounting and finance majors, so I'll focus on just them.

For finance, the career paths are wide: management consulting, investment banking, accounting firms (particularly tax department, corporate finance and consulting/advisory) and more. Furthermore, some investment banks also have winter internship scheme in HK targeting Australian-based students: such as Deutsche Bank, Morgan Stanley, UBS and Credit Suisse. I personally know some Commerce/Law students securing internship and graduate offers from these investment banks' HK office.

For accounting, the career paths are similar: management consulting, investment banking and accounting. I am not so similar with the internship programs in accounting but I know people entering into the accounting field in HK through normal application process as advertised on their websites and have received graduate offers.

So other than entering in the legal field, double degree may open up more opportunities in other industries relating to your other degree.

I am not saying a LLB holder cannot enter into these other industries, but it will be harder for them to break into this other fields.

HKOzLaw 2012-10-13 16:43

Very dangerous to think this way.  Those lawyers will not care that much where their kids do the law degrees.  What they care is where is the fastest as they can line up a position for them and through connections and networking, get them a position in other international law firms as a registered foreign lawyer.  Better still, knowing partners of law firms in that overseas country who can take them on after admission in that jurisdiction and then after two or more years, just do the FIVE heads exams in HK.  

I guess the majority of people who come to this forum are lacking these kinds of connections as they do not have a father/mother/grandma/grandma/uncle/aunt practising law or they would not be asking these questions in the first place.  That's exactly why so many people have stressed the fact that "it is about who you know and who your parents are".

idkkkkk 2012-10-13 16:48

[quote]原帖由 [i]insiderall[/i] 於 2012-10-13 04:30 PM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=344808569&ptid=20964853][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
From another perspective, you can look at the choice of lawyers for their children.  I have practised in this field for 10 odd years and have heard a lot of them study in the UK and not many of them s ... [/quote]
With all due respect, Scotman previously noted:
"Mutli firms going to Australia to me has no bearing in my statement. And a judge sitting in our FCA again has no bearing on the issue as raised."

Applying this line of reasoning, the fact that you have heard many lawyers sending their children to the UK, has no bearing on the academic standard of the UK Law Schools. Just because many lawyers' children decide to go to the UK does not and will not suddenly make the UK Law Schools superior than other Law Schools.

idkkkkk 2012-10-13 16:55

The last quote is especially true.

Having had the opportunity to interview with different law firms in HK, Australia and the UK, I realise that HK law firms stress on connections.

It is most certain that you will come across a question like this when applying for HK law firms, be it during interview or application form: "Do you know any one working at our law firm", or "Are you referred by any employee from our firm".

However, when applying for Aus and UK firms (specifically UK firms' UK offices), I do not recall encountering this sort of questions.

HKOzLaw 2012-10-13 16:56

I happen to have a young kid myself and I know IF my kid wants to practice law when he grows up (entirely leaving it up to him for his career choice) , it will be so much easier for him than it was for me.  I will not advise him of going to such such top law schools and burning himself out of getting the top grades for fear of not getting any legal job as he has already guaranteed one before he starts his journey.  So, the considerations for him will be very different from those for mine.  I probably will utilize all my connections in the field to get him a position that he desires to practise rather than being picky of a law school.
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