查看完整版本 : Vladimir Ashkenazy、Daniel Barenboim

Morriconey 2017-8-22 10:08 AM

Vladimir Ashkenazy、Daniel Barenboim

兩者都係年輕時多產o既鋼琴家,到後期都係轉型為樂團指揮。膚淺地向各前輩們詢問,各位對於呢兩位同樣多產發展路向相類似既「名家」有啲咩評價?

可能某啲資深既前輩會對佢哋有啲不屑。但會唔會有部分作品,佢哋所o既演繹,會係其中一個您最愛o既版本,或至少起碼都可以一聽?

小弟開呢個帖,係因為佢哋出版既錄音唔少,對於有興趣o既作品,比較容易買到,但有時又真係唔想用銀紙嚟到去試。因此,還望各前輩可以賜教。

順便問問,兩者有啲咩代表作值得推介?鋼琴家、指揮身份錄o既都可以。

vicky-chan 2017-8-22 08:15 PM

說真的,不論演奏綱琴或指揮樂團,阿殊堅納西/巴倫邦兩位均不是我杯茶
阿殊堅納西在DECCA極多錄音,值得我推薦的有和Haitank合作
拉嚇曼尼洛夫的piano concerto
Mozart piano concerto

vicky-chan 2017-8-22 08:19 PM

巴倫邦值得推薦的有和她已故妻子(著名大堤琴家Du Pre)合作的作品

artsevergreen 2017-8-22 10:14 PM

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[[i] 本帖最後由 artsevergreen 於 2017-8-25 01:49 PM 編輯 [/i]]

symphonicdance 2017-8-22 10:56 PM

I think both of them are excellent and versatile.  They may not have as many spectacular moments (could be finesse play - if people didn't like, then spoiling moments) as some other conductors and soloists, but generally they play quite safely, really good to be used as exam references.  The only composer I don't like their playing as soloist is J.S. Bach.

Ashkenazy :
Rachmaninoff : Symphonies, Piano Concertos (as soloist), Piano Solo & Duo works
Scriabin : Piano Sonatas
Shostakovich : Piano concertos (as conductor)

Barenboim :
Beethoven : Piano Sonatas

artsevergreen 2017-8-22 11:10 PM

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[[i] 本帖最後由 artsevergreen 於 2017-8-25 01:50 PM 編輯 [/i]]

symphonicdance 2017-8-23 12:11 AM

Cannot quite agree that Bach's music is not for piano.

J.S. Bach has written many works for keyboard instruments.  He may not like the earliest version of piano.  However, if he could encounter a modern piano in his days, I think his compositions for the piano will be just tremendous, rich, beyond imaginations.

As music evolves or rather audience's taste changes, and as pianists have found good ways to interpret baroque music on modern pianos, it's now perfectly suitable for his concerto, chamber and solo music to be played on modern pianos.

There are excellent Bach piano players, like Tureck, Hewitt, Schiff, Richter, etc.  I am just saying that Ashkenazy's and Barenboim's interpretations are not my cup of tea.

artsevergreen 2017-8-23 08:48 AM

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[[i] 本帖最後由 artsevergreen 於 2017-8-25 01:51 PM 編輯 [/i]]

Morriconey 2017-8-23 09:31 AM

先謝過三位前輩既意見同分享

似乎Ashkenazy既拉赫曼尼諾夫都有啲口碑

a.e.g前輩既睇法,其實我都好有同感
但之前睇咗版主師兄分享既一篇Roselyn Tureck既訪問,我對用鋼琴彈奏巴洛克時期鍵盤(尤其是大鍵琴) 作品,態度亦有所軟化,比之前較開放

symphonicdance 2017-8-23 12:11 PM

It's nice from time to time, to hear early and baroque music played by musicians using early instruments or instruments of the times of the composers.

Again, one important aspect is promoting classical music and bringing music to as many people as possible.  Try to imagine the old small villages in Europe in the 18th/19th/20th century.  They probably would not have orchestras .  Nonetheless, through musicians playing transcriptions of opera and orchestral works for keyboard/piano solo, violin solo, duo and/or quartet, etc., the townsfolk would therefore still have the chance to listen to the beautiful melodies of many composers of their times.  Even J.S. Bach had written quite a number of "transcription" works for keyboard.

Therefore, classical music appreciation should not be limited in such way that it must be played on the same, "aged" instrument(s) available at the respective composer's living time.  But if one thinks otherwise, he/she should never listen to CD, watch on youtube, and he/she should only go to live recitals and concerts.  Society, technology, people's tastes, music, civilization continued to develop non-stop.

Ashkenazy's playing of Prokofiev's 10 Pieces from Romeo & Juliet is really nice.  Actually I enjoy his Prokofiev's 5 piano concertos (as soloist), too.

Barenboim's playing of Liszt's transcriptions may not be his best, but still nice.  His Apex recording of Liszt Dante Symphony and Sonata is budget-priced, no complaint, too.

[[i] 本帖最後由 symphonicdance 於 2017-8-23 12:23 PM 編輯 [/i]]

artsevergreen 2017-8-23 10:56 PM

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[[i] 本帖最後由 artsevergreen 於 2017-8-25 01:53 PM 編輯 [/i]]

ozozoz 2017-8-24 01:23 AM

[quote]原帖由 [i]Morriconey[/i] 於 2017-8-23 09:31 AM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=466610605&ptid=26874276][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
先謝過三位前輩既意見同分享

似乎Ashkenazy既拉赫曼尼諾夫都有啲口碑

a.e.g前輩既睇法,其實我都好有同感
但之前睇咗版主師兄分享既一篇Roselyn Tureck既訪問,我對用鋼琴彈奏巴洛克時期鍵盤(尤其 ... [/quote]

Ashkenazy無論彈琴、指揮,多是Russian的作品,如Rachmaninov、Prokofiev、Shostakovich([url=http://www.vladimirashkenazy.com/discography.php]http://www.vladimirashkenazy.com/discography.php[/url])

Barenboim的指揮曲目比Ashkenazy寬(如多次指揮Wagner、Bruckner,Ashkenazy則較少指揮)。他好像多彈德奧作品,如Beethoven、Mozart都有錄全集。

詳情可上兩人網站,查看他們的Discography。

至於Baroque時期的Keyboard Works,用Piano演出亦無不可。過去作曲家創作時,絃部用Gut Strings,鋼琴或用Fortepiano、木管銅管款式有別於今日;今日除了古樂派或部分獨奏家,主流用Steel Strings、現代鋼琴。如要全數復古,勢所難能。即如John Eliot Gardiner所錄的Brahms Symphonies 1 - 4,編制、所用樂器仿照當年,亦未必人人喜愛。[[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqrF7Luxwyw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqrF7Luxwyw[/url]]

[[i] 本帖最後由 ozozoz 於 2017-8-24 01:39 AM 編輯 [/i]]

artsevergreen 2017-8-24 12:08 PM

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[[i] 本帖最後由 artsevergreen 於 2017-8-25 01:54 PM 編輯 [/i]]

ansonyeung825 2017-8-24 01:58 PM

Barenboim 嘅 Beethoven Piano Sonatas 好出名,但係not my cup of tea (overpedalling, unnatural phrasing)

ozozoz 2017-8-24 05:39 PM

[quote]原帖由 [i]artsevergreen[/i] 於 2017-8-24 12:08 PM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=466671643&ptid=26874276][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
[url=http://www.allmusic.com/artist/vladimir-ashkenazy-mn0000761916/biography]http://www.allmusic.com/artist/vladimir-ashkenazy-mn0000761916/biography[/url]

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Barenboim]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Barenboim[/url]

毎位 音樂大師  均有其獨有過性與風格 , 並且亦由於來自不同
民族及國家 ... [/quote]


音樂欣賞可分為感性認識及理性認識,掌握樂理者能更了解作品,但不懂樂理亦無大礙。否則,未學習文學批評及電影理論的人,便不用閱讀文學作品或看電影了。

再者,大師亦難免主觀,如大指揮家Hans von Bülow眼中,Mahler Symphony No. 2第一樂章只是垃圾:「如果這也叫音樂的話,那我就對音樂一無所知了!」

vicky-chan 2017-8-24 06:10 PM

我也買了巴倫邦的貝多芬(130元太吸引)
暫時聽了Symphony No-3,4,5,6&9
我給它的評價:四平八穩,比我想像中好!

ozozoz 2017-8-24 06:34 PM

[quote]原帖由 [i]vicky-chan[/i] 於 2017-8-24 06:10 PM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=466687647&ptid=26874276][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
我也買了巴倫邦的貝多芬(130元太吸引)
暫時聽了Symphony No-3,4,5,6&9
我給它的評價:四平八穩,比我想像中好! [/quote]
之前試聽了他的Elgar,印象不錯

vicky-chan 2017-8-24 08:27 PM

巴倫邦這套貝多芬交響曲,絕對值得買
整體表現平均,完全超出我意料之外:smile_o12:

Morriconey 2017-8-24 10:59 PM

[quote]原帖由 [i]vicky-chan[/i] 於 2017-8-24 08:27 PM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=466693760&ptid=26874276][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
巴倫邦這套貝多芬交響曲,絕對值得買
整體表現平均,完全超出我意料之外:smile_o12: [/quote]

原本都膽粗粗,依家見到有師姐既讚賞,咁應該都唔差得去邊。

symphonicdance 2017-8-25 12:41 AM

Ashkenazy and Barenboim appeared together for the first time in 1966, and played Mozart Concertos for Two Pianos :smile_14:

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahUywqTYKow]www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahUywqTYKow[/url]

And they had recorded this concerto later, and also the Concerto for Three Pianos (with Fou Ts'ong).

[[i] 本帖最後由 symphonicdance 於 2017-8-25 12:52 AM 編輯 [/i]]

artsevergreen 2017-8-25 06:40 AM

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[[i] 本帖最後由 artsevergreen 於 2017-8-25 01:47 PM 編輯 [/i]]

symphonicdance 2017-8-25 12:10 PM

artsevergreen c-hing, If this topic is on Ashkenazy and Barenboim, then I would appreciate if your reply can be a bit more focused on these two musicians or the works they played/conducted.  I am sorry, but I don't quite see how your recent youtube videos on Vivaldi really constructively linked to the topic, understandable by average people, like me.  Thanks.

**************

On a separate note, I don't quite recall if Ashkenazy or Barenboim had ever recorded an CD album on Vivaldi's works.  They had conducted and recorded violin concertos, but why not Four Seasons?  Perhaps not their cup of tea?  Or rather too many good recordings on this work out there?

vicky-chan 2017-8-26 03:09 PM

[quote]原帖由 [i]Morriconey[/i] 於 2017-8-24 10:59 PM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=466700869&ptid=26874276][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]


原本都膽粗粗,依家見到有師姐既讚賞,咁應該都唔差得去邊。 [/quote]
巴倫邦這套Beethoven 5 piano concertos也值得買

vicky-chan 2017-8-26 03:11 PM

[quote]原帖由 [i]Morriconey[/i] 於 2017-8-23 09:31 AM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=466610605&ptid=26874276][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
先謝過三位前輩既意見同分享

似乎Ashkenazy既拉赫曼尼諾夫都有啲口碑

a.e.g前輩既睇法,其實我都好有同感
但之前睇咗版主師兄分享既一篇Roselyn Tureck既訪問,我對用鋼琴彈奏巴洛克時期鍵盤(尤其 ... [/quote]
Ashkenazy既拉赫曼尼諾夫交響曲必買

Morriconey 2017-8-26 07:19 PM

[quote]原帖由 [i]vicky-chan[/i] 於 2017-8-26 03:09 PM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=466781330&ptid=26874276][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]

巴倫邦這套Beethoven 5 piano concertos也值得買 [/quote]


Ashkenazy同Solti & CSO嗰套如何呢?

另外離題一問,下列這些版本是否已可以考慮︰

Krystian Zimerman & VPO (3~5由Leonard Bernstein指揮)

Emil Gilels & George Szell、Cleveland Orchestra

這三套很常見到

Morriconey 2017-8-26 07:22 PM

[quote]原帖由 [i]vicky-chan[/i] 於 2017-8-26 03:11 PM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=466781412&ptid=26874276][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]

Ashkenazy既拉赫曼尼諾夫交響曲必買 [/quote]


一定,但要排隊:smile_35:

symphonicdance 2017-8-26 09:54 PM

I view that the set of Ashkenazy, CSO & Solti is a fairly good recording.  Good rapport between the orchestra and the soloist to interpret in a true Beethoven manner.

[[i] 本帖最後由 symphonicdance 於 2017-8-26 10:03 PM 編輯 [/i]]

robertschumann 2017-8-26 11:25 PM

Ashkenazy我較喜歡是他60年代的錄音, 惜手頭上存碟不多.

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Barenboim我最先接觸是他六七年代EMI由他指揮和彈奏配合English Chamber Orchestra的Mozart Piano Concertos. 不知是否先入為主, 至今仍是我的Mozart Piano Concertos首選.

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Morriconey 2017-8-28 05:43 PM

[quote]原帖由 [i]robertschumann[/i] 於 2017-8-26 11:25 PM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=466805856&ptid=26874276][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
Ashkenazy我較喜歡是他60年代的錄音, 惜手頭上存碟不多.

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Barenboim我最先接觸是他六七年代EMI由他指揮和彈奏配合English Chamber Orchestra的Mozart Piano Concertos. 不知 ... [/quote]

Ashkenazy的舒伯特錄音現在好像不太常見……

我暫時唯一一套的莫札特鋼琴協奏曲則是Ashkenazy和Philharmonia Orchestra那套,正是上面Vicky師姐那套。這套難得連第7和第10也錄了,所以我當時選了它作為我的第一套。

robertschumann 2017-8-28 10:23 PM

真不知何解, Ashkenazy在進入CD年代就好像無乜點錄Schubert Piano Works. 而唯一CD就只是LP的re-issue.

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