查看完整版本 : my view on John Lobb City II

geeboo 2017-12-3 02:10 PM

my view on John Lobb City II

It is a good pair of shoes. try to view it from these angles [for fine shoes]:
1) leather - very good
2) vamp stitching - above average
3) sole
3.1) sole stitching - I see it only about 7spi - an very mediocre machines setting, only equals to any entry-level England-made shoes. Fail
3.2) waist finishes  - acceptable
3.3) sole finishes - acceptable.
3.4) welt finished - nil.
4) making -
4.1) machine last - no good
4.2) heel - use ready block heel without extra polishing - no good.
5) Cosmetic finishes - excellent
No wonder it is a well- made shoes - above average. My question is: How is it, priced at Eur$1100 different to a pair of Carmina, priced at Eur$340 ?
IMO, not much. The Carmina has the added advantage of a more curved last shape, a slight welt decoration and a brass nailed toe.
To me, I will not spend a premium of $600+ on a "name".
Quoted from Shoesnob, Carmina's quality is, if not better, than JL's or EG's entry level shoes - I think he is referring to the above. I don't believe in names; I only trust the guy from what he wrote & the no. of shoes he owned & he have seen.
[i][size=2]"I have said this before, and I am going to say it again: shoes made in Spain are on their way up. They can make shoes that are just as good as their English counterparts, at least within the mid-range of high end footwear, think Crockett & Jones and comparable. Carminas, for me rival C&J Hangrade, but cost a whole lot less, significantly less, and I dare might say that while the leathers they use might be a bit stiffer, their level of making just might rival an entry level Edward Green."[/size][/i]
[size=2][i]www.theshoesnobblog.com/2012/05/carmina-spanish-conquistadors.html[/i][/size]
The next Q maybe, at the same px point - is there anything better ?
This one - an unworn pair of bespoke GC, now available in the Bay at US$560 - of course these kind of super-deal one has to keep hunting & is not readily available anytime and at your size or many Japanese RTW brand or Vass at around US$600 px range. or St Crispins at the same px point as this JL.
If you can save 1-2 times on these premiums, U can consider to spend more on these 2 options:  Okuyama MTO & Fukuda RTW.
Again, no nobody dare to say JL is not good shoes and that is why many would have flocked to buy a pair to show they know good shoes. So it really depends on your audience. If someone really know, they might choose others, but I think the majority still rely on branding for quality assurances; for those whom know that john lobb is. Frankly speaking , apart from leather quality & vamp stitching and the closed channel, I don't see any differences in this pair vs any England-made entry level GY shoes - like Loake & i don't think a $8k px difference justified for the above differences. Apart from the name, this is in fact a pair of $3k shoes - same as Carmina & a very slight notch over say J.Fitzpatrick.
P.S. I had owned 2 pairs of JL Paris  loafers

[[i] 本帖最後由 geeboo 於 2017-12-3 03:54 PM 編輯 [/i]]

zidanely 2017-12-3 03:50 PM

The difference in general lies in leather.

1) Say with a piece of hide, makers such as JL/ EG makes a single pair using the best part of the hide (i.e. one pair per hide) while other makers tries to maximise the return per hide (many cases 6-8 pairs). Of course 羊毛出在羊身上, this cost is transferred to customers.

2) Procurement of leather - with the Hermes group owning most of the renowned tanneries these days reserving the best leather for themselves, the industry in general found it much harder to procure quality leather from the usual providers. While this is giving competitors a tough time, JL has managed to maintain a relatively more stable supply because of who they are, in comparison to guys like Carmina - who makes good shoes but depending on your luck, could give you something that may scare you as much as please you.

Having said that, personally I can’t justify myself paying 10k+ for a pair of machine welted RTW, let alone a pair of Blake stitched cockroach killer ([cough] Berluti) while there is access to more sensible options out there.

My 2 cents.

[[i] 本帖最後由 zidanely 於 2017-12-3 06:42 PM 編輯 [/i]]

sasacy 2017-12-3 04:49 PM

JL 咁價位都只係用機 Goodyear welted,所以最後去咗幫襯 Guild of Crafts RTW,起碼係 Hand Welted

chowkin 2017-12-3 07:30 PM

While I have a lot of respect for Justin, please allow me to 以小人之心 度君子之腹

1. He was involved in the Armoury trunk show in London which showcased Carmina. It would only be natural for him to talk up the quality of Carmina

2. He was about to launch his own label and his shoes were made in Spain.

Comparing Carmina to C&J handgrade is a meaningful exercise, not so much with EG or Lobb

Having said that, I fully agree that JL shoes in HK are absurdly priced and even at the rare 40% discount 我都唔捨得。Most of my collection were bought at steeply discounted prices of £200-£250 a pair, shoe trees included, when Nick held his massive liquidation of old stock two years ago.

[[i] 本帖最後由 chowkin 於 2017-12-3 09:34 PM 編輯 [/i]]

bergschrund 2017-12-4 01:54 AM

Sorry mate I cannot agree why this post need to exist. Who are you to share a view on city II and in such a bad way?

When you start to compare leather quality, welting, and sole blah blah blah..., you are wrong. If you know so much to a point to name all those fancy things, then find a bloody cheapest  shoemaker to do bespoke in every possible way you want, and that is the true value! End of story.

Those who buy JL shoes or Porsche cars or any brand that is famous for their goods (not Hermes belt) can be broken down in these types:
1. Don’t know anything, go for brand. Just buy the most expensive thing on Earth.
2. Don’t know the all details, follow brand and hope the brand live up to reputation
3. Knows the details to question if others acknowledge it.
4. Been through and done that. Still appreciate the brand and wear it on a rainy day.

Having said all that, try finding a shoemaker to replicate:
city ii
william II
Chapel
Becketts
And you will realise what’s the point when the best you can do is a copy on handwelted shoes then that’s the reason why JL is overcharging so much for their well known design(last and leather) and you should be paying for it.

#holland叻
#lonely
#ignoranceIsStrength
#WhyDoesJLneedAView

YeungLuk 2017-12-4 10:04 AM

:smile_o12:

zidanely 2017-12-4 03:01 PM

[quote]原帖由 [i]bergschrund[/i] 於 2017-12-4 01:54 AM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=471868268&ptid=27098507][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
Sorry mate I cannot agree why this post need to exist. Who are you to share a view on city II and in such a bad way?

When you start to compare leather quality, welting, and sole blah blah blah..., yo ... [/quote]

1. 「禮服蒙面俠」
2. 隔離 post 樓主
3. 樓主......掛
4. 擺明係話緊蛋爺 😏

chowkin 2017-12-5 09:36 PM

Geeboo 兄,話時話,你以前話過 Thom Browne 啲鞋 mark up 好多都值喎,做乜對 John Lobb City II 咁睇唔過眼呢?

http://m.discuss.com.hk/index.php?action=thread&tid=26624709

geeboo 2017-12-5 10:31 PM

I Hope I can make it clear
1) If I want a vintage Rolex Big crown like 6200; if I am just after the General styling it offer, there are many much cheaper, also vintage available.
2) But if I am after a better steel, a vintage faded dial, a vintage Tritium faded index, a plexi dome glass, a 3133 movt,,....., there might not be any alternative but to buy a real one.
3) What I have said for TB is: If one is looking for a properly made country boots & with a modern, cute twist [by TB - the stripe] - there is no alternative that I know of & therefore, one is almost forced to buy a TB boots. Yes, it is definitely overpriced but if my requirement is : tradition country boots + a modern twist, there is not options many available - U can name some trickers models as an alternative, but at the end it is about personal favour & branding loyalty
3.1) Some Trickers' model is  built in traditional way [proper country boots]+ modern twist -> I just don't like it, I like TB.  It  is ok.  At the end It is not me whom spend the $.
4) As a value seeker, I am always calculating & balancing the best alternatives available & the px-to-quality ratio.
5) JL is better than Carmina, but IMO the px differential for this model is so much greater than the quality difference [very little in this case, IMO] so I will opt for Carmina.
6) Put it alternatively, for ~$10k, I might look for a shoe that is hand-welted, closer stitch count, a decorated waist, a hand polish heel, etc that some Japanese made shoes can provide.
7) Put it short, it depends on the best alternative available or the best bulk for the $ I spend. To me only, period.
P.S.
The reason I post this thread is Not to show off my knowledge in shoes or to devalue JL; I hope I can bring out points in evaluating a pair of fine shoes from my experiences & to share it with newer comers so that the core value of "quality" always comes 1st can be retained for newer generations but not the names. I can keep it silent if people hate to hear that & I choose the former. It is not 睇唔過眼 as people have their own preferences but as far as I have read there are not many articles about this kind of comparison so I choose to speak.

[[i] 本帖最後由 geeboo 於 2017-12-6 12:17 AM 編輯 [/i]]

fishball_boy 2017-12-5 11:32 PM

Sorry ah Geeboo gor, 你post那對Masaru不是MTO來的,那是我對鞋來的.

那對last 係我私人的bespoken last, 所以絕對不是Masaru的MTO, 而我也不肯定此款色是否在他的MTO list上.

geeboo 2017-12-5 11:52 PM

fish hing, I know that it is your pair, I have read that page, you said it is "kind of" MTO with your special remark it is your own last. Your sympathy to my not writing every details in my post is seeked as my post is usu., already very long :smile_13:
Enclosed is a new project of mine. Gold thread inter-lock monogram [just started, just an outline, about 30% only] on Italian paisley print velvet to be made into a slipper [by a shoemaker, not me].

[[i] 本帖最後由 geeboo 於 2017-12-6 12:02 AM 編輯 [/i]]

小市民0009 2017-12-6 12:37 AM

我諗如果好似以前同旦爺同蘇仔咁"華山論劍" 式去討論皮鞋過引得多. 
從做工, 工序, 用料, 以致一啲接近專業技術都有唔少討論過 (甚或激辯過, 哈哈!)

如果單單討論某幾樣嘢, 就去比較同判斷品牌之間誰高誰低, 恕我大膽咁講: 根本無意思. 

carmina, JLP 嘅價錢上差距,  做工/用料上嘅差別, 我諗我理解同認識嘅程度, 唔會比呢度任何一位師兄低, 但如果你問我嘅選擇係咩,  我會答, 有能力負擔得起嘅話, 鞋櫃或多或少都應該有 JLP (絕對唔係崇拜名牌, 好多師兄都知小弟對皮鞋嘅認識).  就算日本皮鞋市場競爭咁激烈, 又有咁多本土大師/品牌, JLP 仍然可以有大量日本fans. 日本人對品質嘅要求大家睇怕唔需要懷疑喇掛.

至於 carmina, 以佢嘅價錢, 當然算係唔錯嘅選擇.  買carmina同時又買JLP 我覺得都ok喎.  

sorry, 最近太少上嚟呢度, 有咩講錯, 多多包涵. :smile_o05:

fishball_boy 2017-12-6 07:36 AM

火車哥好耐無見!
都是你評論中肯
可以講多句,有時買鞋的嘢,除咗「質量」問題,仲有一點好重要,楦型,而楦型也有兩點,合身及樣貌。
Carmina, 第一,為我著得唔舒服,第二,我從來都唔覺得順眼(純個人口味)問題,所以我從來無諗過要買。
這兩點唔啱,其實講乜都無乜意思

fishball_boy 2017-12-6 11:13 AM

其實John Lobb楦我喜歡個型,但合腳程度就好麻麻,所以我都無點買過,只有對作為雨靴,另一對貪平買咗放係度.

著得bespoke耐,其實唔多會想返轉頭,只是有時見到好抵買,唔買又好似蝕底:smile_39:
同埋bespoke對鞋,又耐又貴:smile_27:

我第一對bespoke的高和,當時千幾蚊咋,平過買church呀!今日要過萬一對,我著唔起喇:Q

小市民0009 2017-12-6 09:52 PM

[taguid=3987153]fishball_boy[/taguid]

無記錯嘅話, 你未開始去高和 bespoke之前, 你都已經有幫襯當時戲院里老師傅鏡記造鞋架喇:smile_o10:

fishball_boy 2017-12-6 11:12 PM

[quote]原帖由 [i]小市民0009[/i] 於 2017-12-6 09:52 PM 發表 [url=http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=472011242&ptid=27098507][img]http://www.discuss.com.hk/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
[taguid=3987153]fishball_boy[/taguid]

無記錯嘅話, 你未開始去高和 bespoke之前, 你都已經有幫襯當時戲院里老師傅鏡記造鞋架喇:smile_o10: [/quote]

第一對bespoke 的高和,不是第一對訂造的鞋嘛。
鏡記對鞋其實似MTO, 連試腳都無,不過勝在夠平,唔記得三舊定四舊水,我當時對Timberland狗牙底都八舊幾
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查看完整版本: my view on John Lobb City II